Grappler Gauntlets / Discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page Grappler Gauntlets.

bigalphillips 23 Feb 2012 03:54

Spading the bonus Melee Power damage at short range:

Opponent	My tech	Opp tech	MD	Dam	MP	Bonus MP
Rat King	Crushing Punch (3)	Rush and Swarm (3)	2	13	3	1 to 7
Rat King	Crushing Punch (3)	Rush and Swarm (3)	2	12	3	0 to 6
Lake Serpent	Crushing Punch (3)	Parry (3)	2	9	3	-1 to 3
Lake Serpent	Crushing Punch (3)	Parry (3)	2	8	3	-2 to 2
Bat Swarm	Crushing Punch (3)	Swoop down (3)	4	5	3	-1 to 1
Lake Serpent	Crushing Punch (3)	Lash Out (2)	2	8	3	-2 to 2
Lake Serpent	Crushing Punch (3)	Tail Slam (3)	2	10	3	-1 to 4
Bat Swarm	Crushing Punch (3)	Swarm Around Your Head (2)	4	6	3	-1 to 2
Bat Swarm	Opposed Brutality (2)	Swirl in the Air (4)	4	8	3	-1 to 3
Insane bum	Close Grap Jab (2)	Punch (3)	0	12	3
Insane bum	Close Grap Jab (2)	Punch (3)	0	19 (8 ref)	3
Third Eye Ganger	Punch (3)	Brutality (2)	0	11 (8 str)	3
Rat King	Opposed Brutality (2)	Lash Out (2)	2	14	3	2 to 8
Third Eye Ganger	Punch (3)	Kidney (1)	0	8	3	1 to 5

At distance 6, Bonus MP = 1
At distance 5, Bonus MP = -1 to 2 (exact value unspaded)
At distance 4, Bonus MP = 2 to 3 (exact value unspaded)

Last edited on 06 Mar 2012 01:15 by bigalphillips Show more

bigalphillips 06 Mar 2012 02:31

EDIT: At some point, it looks like I accidentally equipped black stone pants (+1 Melee Power), which is throwing everything off. I'm restarting from fresh data.

Old data <— I think this is accurate, but don't trust it 100%.

---

New data (all from ghouls - MP = 5; MD = 1; Strength = 0) - triple checked for accuracy.

Dist			Dam	Expected	Bonus
2	Opener Jab (1)	Ghoul Bite (1)	13 dam	10	3
4	Opposed Brutality (2)	Leap (2)	10/0 dam	8	2
6	Punch (3)	Ceiling Crawl (3)	7/0 dam	6	1
3	Opposed Brutality (2)	Ghoul Bite (1)	10 dam	8	2
	Crushing Punch (3)	(unopposed)	10 dam	9	1
2	Opener Jab (1)	Ghoul Bite (1)	13 dam	10	3
4	Opposed Brutality (2)	Leap (2)	10/2 dam	8	2
	Punch (3)	(unopposed)	7 dam	6	1
1	Opener Jab (1)	Dig Claws (0)	13 dam	10	3
3	Opposed Brutality (2)	Rake Claws (1)	10 dam	8	2
	Crushing Punch (3)	(unopposed)	10 dam	9	1
2	Opener Jab (1)	Rake Claws (1)	13 dam	10	3
2	Opener Jab (1)	Ghoul Bite (1)	13 dam	10	3
2	Opposed Brutality (2)	Dig Claws (0)	11 dam	8	3
	Crushing Punch (3)	(unopposed)	10 dam	9	1
1	Muzzled Ghoul Bite (1)	Dig Claws (0)	10 dam	7	3
4	Punch (3)	Ghoul Bite (1)	8 dam	6	2

Last edited on 07 Mar 2012 02:35 by bigalphillips Show more

Are we missing something important with these?

Magnifico 27 Mar 2012 00:31

I've been thinking about updating my preliminary evaluation of these for the Unearthly Item Buying Guide and I have to say that, based on what I see right now, I'm sort of underwhelmed. I am hoping somebody can point out how I'm overlooking some important implications of what we do know, or maybe point the way towards unspaded goodness lurking out there still. Still, at the risk of making Kinak cry (or angry!), let me lay out how this looks to me so far.

Item Base Bonuses

The base +3 Melee Power is better than nothing when you first start out, but even a pretty early-game weapon like the riot baton outclasses it if its special distance-based bonus doesn't apply. But even if your opponent cooperates by using low-chain techniques, at best it looks like (without cyberarms, anyway) you're going to get 6 Melee Power out of this weapon. That's not terrible, but you can buy razor knuckles for 50 credits that have that much power no matter what your opponent is doing.

So my sense is that this item stands or falls on the special techniques it grants.

Special Techniques

Grappler Jab

This technique is similar to Lash Out, except that its bonus comes into play at short distance instead of as a closer. In the early game, Lash Out is probably more useful, since your go-to chain will probably be Dive for Cover/Punch/Lash Out. So, when you're using it, it's probably as a closer. And since a lot of the early-game enemies, e.g. all the non-Etheric opponents in the Sewer Hideout, use mostly or exclusively Ranged attacks, you're not going to be getting the short distance bonus from Grappler Jab very often. If you can learn some chain 1 attacks, it's better filler than Lash Out, but by then you've probably got some Brutality, which is better than either most of the time.

The main use of this technique that I can think of offhand (other than unlocking the ability to learn Grappler Grab, for which see below) is that it'd let you make a good Melee chain early on if for some reason you sided with Carlos and so can't learn Lash Out from the Friendly Bum.

Grappler Grab

At least for now this is pretty much a post-run technique, since you have to go very far out of your way to get cyberarms installed in-run. It does slightly less base damage than Ghoul Bite, but unlike that technique it works fine with an air filter equipped. On the other hand, it probably doesn't work as well as it could unless you have the gauntlets equipped, and post-run that means passing on more powerful weapons like a shark hide baton or twisting silver blade. If you know somewhat harder-to-get techniques like Primitive Attack or Shark Bite the main selling point here is going to be the ability to unlock …

Grappler Crush

Well, OK, this is a pretty powerful technique. Unfortunately, it comes with some serious limitations. The 10 Base Damage is strong, but remember you need to be using the gauntlets instead of some other, potentially more powerful, weapon. Second of all, you can't use this technique until round 2 at the earliest. This means it's probably not going to see a lot of use in high-end gang warfare, since if you're fighting somebody like Erenoth you're not going to get more than one round to get your licks in. That goes double for the leaves jagged wounds special, which is only going to matter in long fights. This might be something that would come in handy in boss fights, but many bosses (e.g. the Towering Snowman or the Intertwined Serpents) have No Organs and so don't bleed.

Disclaimer

Using these with cyberarms seems to be where their main power lies, and the pool of people who have cyberarms installed is pretty small. As we often do, we may well have given up too soon in spading these.

Unearthly Weapons: Hard to Balance?

The sense I get is that unearthly weapons are especially hard to balance. With most other equipment slots, there's a pretty wide variety of effects you could have them give. With weapons, though, you pretty much need to pile on the attack power. But you can't just give players a super-high-power weapon right from turn 1, and putting an equip requirement isn't going to be very satisfying either. The crystalline flame and the Zalian defense tool got around this by requiring you to use them for a lot of fights to get them to "level up". This time around you need to have cyberarms installed to really go to town. But since that means you won't unlock the full potential of the gauntlets in the course of a typical reset run, they have to compete with a lot of high-end gear for post-run use. Maybe this will change when Oldtown rolls?

Kinak 27 Mar 2012 00:44

The sense I get is that unearthly weapons are especially hard to balance. With most other equipment slots, there's a pretty wide variety of effects you could have them give. With weapons, though, you pretty much need to pile on the attack power. But you can't just give players a super-high-power weapon right from turn 1, and putting an equip requirement isn't going to be very satisfying either.

This is quite accurate, just in general. No unearthly item is easy to balance, but weapons are doubly hard (because they serve such an important role in the combat system).

Which ends up meaning that every weapon is an exercise in sneaky balancing :)

Cheers!
Kinak

Time to take another look at these?

Magnifico 01 Oct 2012 01:11

According to Arkaim, we overlooked something important with these before, namely that the opponent's chain number is treated as zero if you attack unopposed. I'm not sure if we just missed this in the initial spading or if something changed — I had it in my head that this wasn't how it worked. At any rate, against opponents with relatively short chains, you'll get the short distance bonus a lot more than we had suspected. Arkaim was reporting some pretty impressive damage numbers using these in-run, so they're definitely worth another look for melee-focused runs.

bigalphillips 10 Nov 2013 04:10

After spending ~3 days fighting with the gauntlets and commemorative cyberarms equipped, I haven't gotten any special cyber-realted techniques here. Just the normal Jabs.

Arkaim 08 Jun 2014 15:09

You punch the serpent for 7 damage, but the serpent is already underwater. The water absorbs all of the damage.
The serpent lurks under water, waiting for an opening.

You viciously slash the serpent for 13 damage.
The serpent slams her tail down on you dealing 1 damage.

Punch
7 = 2 + 9 + (short distance) - 4
7 = 7 + (short distance)
0 = short distance (7+)

Cruel Slash
13 = 6 + 9 + (short distance) - 4
13 = 11 + (short distance)
2 = short distance (5)

You punch the serpent for 9 damage.
The serpent leaps into you for 1 damage.

You viciously slash the serpent for 14 damage.

Punch
9 = 2 + 9 + (short distance) - 4
9 = 7 + (short distance)
2 = short distance (5)

Cruel Slash
14 = 6 + 9 + (short distance) - 4
14 = 11 + (short distance)
3 = short distance

You grab at the sludge for 10 damage.
The sludge punches you, throwing the whole weight of its body behind it and dealing 2 damage.

The sludge flows around you, covering you in toxic sludge.

10 = 4 + 9 + (short distance) - 6
10 = 7 + (short distance)
3 = short distance (4)

You grab at the sludge for 9 damage.
The sludge pulls back its head and spits a stream of acid at you, dealing 7 damage.

You viciously slash the sludge for 12 damage.

You punch the sludge for 6 damage.

You kick wildly at the sludge, connecting for 15 damage.

Grappler Grab
9 = 4 + 9 + (short distance) - 6
9 = 7 + (short distance)
2 = short distance (5)

You grab at the serpent for 14 damage.
The serpent latches onto you and tears a chunk out of you with her teeth, dealing 2 damage.

The serpent waits until the last moment, then leaps into you, dealing 2 damage.

0 Strength
9 Melee Power

14 = 4 + 9 + (short distance) - 4
14 = 9 + (short distance)
5 = short distance (2)

You grab at the serpent for 13 damage.
The serpent leaps into you for 1 damage.

0 Strength
9 Melee Power
13 = 4 + 9 + (short distance) - 4
13 = 9 + (short distance)
4 = short distance (3)

You viciously slash the eye for 10 damage.
The eye batters you with its wings, dealing 1 damage.

You dig your fingers into the eye for 18 damage.

10 = 6 + 9 + (short distance) - 6
10 = 9 + (short distance)
1 = short distance (6)

You viciously close your gauntlet on the eye, dealing 14 damage.
The eye gives you the Evil Eye and you burst into flames. The malefic green fire deals you 7 damage.

14 = 10 + 9 + (short distance) - 6
14 = 13 + (short distance)
1 = short distance (6)

You viciously close your gauntlet on the ghoul, dealing 24 damage.
The ghoul rakes you with its claws for 1 damage.

You dig your fingers into the ghoul for 23 damage.

You viciously slash the ghoul for 17 damage.

You punch the ghoul for 11 damage.

You kick wildly at the ghoul, connecting for 20 damage.

The ghoul continues bleeding from the jagged wounds, taking 6 damage.

0 Strength
9 Melee Power

Grappler Crush
24 = 10 + 9 + (short distance) - 1
24 = 18 + (short distance)
6 = short distance (1)

Grappler Grab
23 = 10(?) + 9 + (short distance) - 1
23 = 18 + (short distance)
5 = short distance

Cruel Slash
17 = 6 + 9 + (short distance) - 1
17 = 14 + (short distance)
3 = (short distance)

Punch
11 = 2 + 9 + (short distance) - 1
11 = 10 + (short distance)
1 = short distance

Wild Kick
20 = 12 + 9 + (short distance) - 1
20 = 20 + (short distance)
0 = short distance

---

You grab at the ghoul for 13 damage.
The ghoul rakes you with its claws for 1 damage.

You viciously slash the ghoul for 13 damage, but the ghoul's sudden jump avoids all but 7 damage.
The ghoul leaps a shocking distance straight up.

0 Strength
5 Melee Power

Grappler Grab
13 = 4 + 5 + (short distance) - 1
13 = 8 + (short distance)
5 = short distance (2)

Cruel Slash
13 = 6 + 5 + (short distance) - 1
13 = 10 + (short distance)
3 = short distance (4)

Last edited on 09 Jun 2014 06:59 by Arkaim Show more

Arkaim 12 Jun 2014 03:53

You grab Al to shake him for 11 damage.
Al circles you, eventually just stabbing you for 1 damage.

0 Strength
9 Melee Power

11 = 9 + 4 + (short distance) - 6
11 = 7 + (short distance)
4 = short distance

You grab at Al for 10 damage.
Al circles you, eventually just stabbing you for 2 damage.

10 = 9 + 4 + (short distance) - 6
10 = 7 + (short distance)
3 = short distance

You viciously slash Al for 12 damage.
Al circles you, eventually just stabbing you for 2 damage.

12 = 9 + 6 + (short distance) - 6
12 = 9 + (short distance)
3 = short distance

Last edited on 12 Jun 2014 04:19 by Arkaim Show more

bigalphillips 29 Jan 2022 00:22

With reflexive cyberblade installed (also analyzing cybereye, angelic wings):

DIST 5
7+4-10+BONUSMP = 2 ∴ BONUSMP = 1
[2] You close on the hands, then slash them for 2-4 melee damage with your bladed gauntlet.
[3] The hands hail down on you with punches for x melee damage.

DIST 4
7+4-10+BONUSMP ≥ 3 ∴BONUSMP ≥ 2
[2] You close on the hands, then slash them for 6 melee damage with your bladed gauntlet.
[2] The tree grabs onto you with its branches.

DIST 3
7+4-10+BONUAMP = 3-4 ∴ BUNOSMP = 2-3
[2] You close on the hands, then slash them for 4-6 melee damage with your bladed gauntlet.
[1] The hands reach into you and pull out something important-looking for 27 etheric damage.

DIST 2
7+4-10+BONUAMP = 4-7 ∴ BUNOSMP = 3+
[2] You close on the hands, then slash them for 7 melee damage with your bladed gauntlet.
[0] The hands grab you to shake you for 8 melee damage.

Which means this definitely doesn't count as a compatible cyberarm for the gauntlets (also never learned Grappler Grab from this with it).